Thursday, August 10, 2023

Have You Ever?

Have you ever loved something so hard your heart might explode?

Have you ever lost something or someone and thought you might implode?

Have you ever heard of someone experiencing a loss and wondered what to do?

Have you ever uttered the words, "I can't imagine that kind of pain"?

I have. I have done all of those things. I've told so many people that grief looks different for everyone. Each type of grief looks different. When I met Kyle, we bonded over grief. He would ask me questions about whether or not it was OK to feel or do certain things while he was fresh in his grief after losing his sister. Then he would follow that up by saying, "I know my pain isn't as bad as you losing your husband, but...." I always corrected him.

He lost a sister. I had lost my husband. He lost someone that he had known his entire life. I had lost someone that I was planning to spend my life with. I lost someone that I had created lives with. It's like comparing an arm and a leg. It's completely different; both are terrible losses. That loss is extremely terrible when the person is young.

Today, I learned of someone passing. It's hard not to call her a child because I watched her grow from a child into a beautiful young woman. She had just graduated from high school with my oldest son. She was truly one of a kind. She had her entire life ahead of her. She was JUST getting started.

Have you ever known someone that made such an impact that an entire community is rocked by her loss?

Have you ever lost someone and wondered or screamed, "WHY?!?!?!?!!!!"

Have you ever watched everyone around you doing the same?

While I've said that there are many different kinds of grief and none of them should be compared, I will say that the loss of a child has to be the worst. I haven't had that, but I have feared it. I especially fear it at this moment when I know that my child is about to go off into the world on his own. Now my friend is completely submersed in my worst fear.

Because I have been through loss, people have come to me and asked the question, "What do I say?" Trust me when I say this... I have heard some STUPID things and been very angry. What I always tell people is that you should never tell a person how to grieve. I didn't want articles. I didn't need to hear words of advice. I actually vocalized it to a random friend of a friend whose aunt's best friends said that I should do BLAH, BLAH, BLAH. My response wasn't kind, but I'd had enough. It was clear when I said, "Oh really?! When was the last time you lost your husband?"

It probably wasn't my classiest move, but I couldn't hear another tidbit about what I SHOULD be doing. Yet, here I am wondering what to do or say to my friend. I loved her baby, too. I have so many wonderful memories of this beautiful girl. I am shredded again when I think of her little brother and sister. I am unbearably sad for her parents. I'm looking around at every other person she and her family have touched and we are all shook.

I have been writing my son's goodbye post for a year in my head. My thank you's to the people we've done life with. The incredible sadness of the slowest breakup I've ever gone through. My oldest baby. My firstborn son. My year of "lasts" with him all in some silly blog on this page will never convey what I have been experiencing for a year. So much of this sadness was the result of me thinking about how his dad wasn't able to be with him for these things.

Today, it all feels really damn insignificant in the incomparable loss of this precious child's life. So, I guess I'm writing to say that you shouldn't say anything stupid to a grieving mother. You do not know her pain. Instead, sit with her when she's ready for it. Let her cry. Let her laugh. Feed her. Hug her. Let her scream. Just let her be and you need to be respectful of that.

Lastly, you don't know the story. One day, you might get details. But if you don't, who cares?! It's none of your business anyways. Be the support system the family and friends need. We need to love each other. We need to kiss our babies and say "I love you" every day. We need to send them prayers and cover them with love for the rest of their lives. Because at the end of the day...

Have you ever lost a child?



Thursday, August 18, 2022

First Lasts - Round 1

 In March of 2016, I wrote about the the last of my firsts when Bryce's first D-Day anniversary was coming up.  Grief does strange things to the human mind and heart.  When I lost Bryce, I had to feel the first of everything without him.  When the first anniversary of D-Day rolled around, I was afraid that I would start to lose parts of him; memories, dates, the exact color of his eyes.  I didn't want to ever forget.  The beauty of grief is that you don't need a holiday to remember the ones you've lost.  I just didn't realize it at the time.

Now I am starting another grieving process as Bowen starts his senior year in high school.
  My baby
  My first born
  My mini-me
  The oldest of two reasons I chose to keep breathing in 2016

I think I've done an amazing job of avoiding how this really feels.  Don't get me wrong... I have definitely faced this reality over the last year, but I am AMAZING at shoving these things down.  I have tried to deny reality that in about a year, I will move this beautiful child out of my house and let him go be an adult.  I've been training him for this his whole life, right?  That's what we do as parents.  We love them, teach them and pray for them to go be self sustaining people out in the world all on their own.

Tomorrow, I will attend a senior mom brunch.  I was asked to pick out pictures for a slideshow.  The request was anything from babies until now.  Reality hit me when I found this gem

Yup.  The first day of kindergarten.  Holding his daddy's hand as we went up to the cross walk.

Bryce was an amazing father.  He loved our boys fiercely.  He fought for his own life fiercely, and he did so mostly for his boys.

Monday, I cried.  HARD.

I have already started to think of all of the things that the boys will experience and accomplish and experience without having their dad there to see it.

Sure, we know that Bryce is watching from above, but Bowen will not walk across the high school graduation stage to look up and see his dad sitting in the bleachers.  Bowen may not have held his daddy's hand to make their way into a building for Bowen's last first day of high school, but he also didn't get a choice in the matter.

Bowen has always been a delightful person.  I am honored to be his momma.  He's had some rough patches.  He's been through some pretty terrible things.  He's overcome some demons.  He's proving to the world what I have always seen in him:

He is a leader.
He is talented.
He is beautiful inside and out.
He is fun.
He is protective.
He is unapologetically himself.
He will fight until the bitter end for what he believes in.

When I was prepping him for his junior prom, I was punched in the gut.  Leading up to prom, he had the worst attitude.  The day came and he put on his first tux.  He came into mine and Kyle's room asking questions about how things work with a tux while I was in the bathroom with one of my best friends.  I turned around to see Kyle fixing his collar for him.

DONE!!!!  That did me in.

I am so grateful that I have Kyle in our lives, but it really hit me in my momma heart.  While Bryce will never be the one that is able to physically stand in front of our first born, I am still here.  I got the honor of showing him how to add those strange tux buttons to a shirt that already has buttons.  Bowen wore Bryce's monogrammed cuff links that night.  I was able to teach him that he should always have a handkerchief on the inside pocket of his jacket.  I told him that if Olivia started to cry, that's what you offer her.  NOT the pocket square.  I also told him that he better not be the reason for her tears or they'd better be happy tears.  So, I gave him a hanky that was his dad's, also with dad's initials.

That's what it's about, right?  God blesses us with these tiny little creatures that we grow in our bodies.  They're so dependent on us for their every need.  For the next 18 years, we love them, teach them, feed them, pray over them and let them go.  We spend 18 years of our lives teaching them how to leave us.  I've made the reference before due to another blogger.  Boy moms experience the slowest break-up of all time.  We do it willingly.  I would do it all over again.  One million times over.

Bowen Dale Stobb is the first of two incredibly amazing humans that I grew in my belly.  I knew their personalities before they entered the world.  Bowen kicked, moved and danced all day in there.  He gave me heartburn before he ever took in air.  While I enter into round one in the first of the lasts with my first born, I might need a little grace.  I know that I need to feel all the feels.  I know that I also don't want to be sloppy about it, but I'm sure I will be at times.  Just give me grace, maybe even a hanky.


As for you, Bowen Dale Stobb, be true to yourself.  I know that you don't see how much of a leader you are, but you are.  It's just who you have always been.  Be true to yourself.  Remember what's right.  Love the Lord fiercely and know that He will never leave you.  Shake a man's hand like a man, but not so hard that he feels challenged.  Do everything respectfully, but never be a doormat.  Love, and love completely.  Know that your daddy is with you, because he is in you.  He and I are incredibly proud of you. And remember what I have said to you for years..... go be amazing.  #BStrong

Thursday, December 16, 2021

We had a Good Run

 Maybe I should say HE had a good run, but there's more than one.  This is about the good run of three good men in my life.

If you are on my Facebook page, you know that I have been wrapped up in football for weeks and the intensity took on new levels this year.  My junior is the starting quarterback, safety and is out there to do different jobs for special teams, too.  He's on the field a LOT.

My freshman played football, as well.  Thursday nights for he took the field as a player.  Friday night,  he entertained us on the drum line for Marching Band.  AJ's Marching Band participated in a contest every weekend in October.  We were unable to advance past Area, but they were AMAZING!!!!!

The football games for Varsity continued into the semi-finals last Thursday where we fell to Lorena just one game short of State game.  These boys fought SO hard and for SO long.  This is only the second time in Lago Vista history that they made it to week 5 of the playoffs.  Out of 106 teams in 3A - Div I, we were one of 4 standing.  I mean COME ON!!!  That's not just a good run, that's a GREAT RUN.

The pressure was on.  Tensions get higher every week.  ThenMonday of that week going into the game, we learned that their grandfather had passed away in the night.  Gary had been ill for quite some time.  We knew that it was bad.  On Monday, I couldn't stop crying.  Well, that's not entirely true.  I would stop.  I would try to get some work done.  Then, I would spontaneously cry again.  I finally quit trying to get anything done and I just decided to be sad.  I think maybe I was a little jealous, too.

Gary woke up in heaven.  He walked through the pearly gates, met Jesus and got to hug Bryce again.  I'd say that his day was FAR better than anyone's that he left behind.  He isn't in pain any longer.  His incredibly intelligent way always caught me off guard.  I could tell story after story of things about Gary that make me smile; some I was there for.  Others were stories that Bryce or other members of his family shared over the years.

Last week, my boys swallowed their sadness for days.  They performed on a football field Thursday night and woke up early Friday to go bury their grandfather.  Their composure on Friday was significantly better than mine.  We turned RIGHT around to come back to Lago for AJ to be able to perform for his concert Friday night.  He woke up early on Saturday to get on a bus to audition for all-state.  He didn't advance, but he's a freshman.  He tried it and he'll be back at it next year.

We suffered some pretty huge losses last week, but my men have impressed me more that I can ever express.  One day, I hope I grow up to be like them and handle things in the impressive way that they have.





Monday, October 18, 2021

Grief in Another's Eyes

When people ask me about my grief, it usually comes in the form of questions.

"Does it ever get any better?"
"Is it OK that I feel this way after (insert any given time frame here)?"
"Does it makes sense that sometimes I feel (insert emotion here)?"

I have the same answer every time.  Grief is different for everyone and every loss is different.

I have been writing this blog in my head for months now.  I've been too busy to put it all down.  I've also wondered if it's too painful to sit down and type it all out.  This year has been a tough one.  There's covid still running rampant.  It's definitely gotten closer to home this year than when it started a year and a half ago.  Either way, painful or busy, it's time to get it out.

At the beginning of the year, we got word that Bryce's dad, Gary, was getting worse.  Multiple Systems Atrophy is a strange beast.  Soon after, Jerrie, Bryce's mom, found out that she has Hodgkin's Lymphoma.  The beginning of her treatments were terribly hard on her.  Bryce's sister and her family all dove in to help care for her and Gary.  I tried to get down there over the summer to pitch in on rides to chemo and letting them get away for a night or something..... anything!

In April, my Kyle went through terrible grief while remembering his sister's death during her birthday month.  In March, Bryce had been gone for FIVE years.  It seemed like every time we turned around we were hearing of another death, loss, something sad.  At the same time, there's other things that feel like grief, too.  My boys are getting older and needing me less.  The grieving process of them growing up and moving out is already starting.  Friendships that seem to be falling apart or just fading away.  There's grief with that, too.

When the covid business started, I went crazy before anyone else did.  I tried to keep it to myself as much as possible.  Then, I started to notice or hear about others that weren't handling it very well either.  Watching others go through it all is just as hard.  Same thing with grief.  Watching someone else go through it is hard, too.  In some ways, watching it happen to others feels hardER.  If you have any compassion at all, it just hurts.  No one enjoys watching other people in pain.  Oh... with the exception of the sociopath's I watch on the ID channel.  To see someone in the kind of pain that has been the worst pain of your life makes it worse.  It brings up memories of your own pain and all of it comes back.  ALL of it.

I'm not sure what shifted, but people became really, REALLY ugly during it all.  At one point, I was verbally assaulted during a pedicure because of my beliefs.  (I will NOT go into it all here.)  This older woman started asking me personal questions.  

Mean old lady:  Have you ever had someone you love die?
Super innocent, tiny, sweet, never say anything mean version of me:  Yes.  I lost a husband to cancer.
Mean ol' broad:  Oh.  So, it wasn't covid.  Then, you STILL don't get it.

I was SOOOOOO enraged, I nearly kicked my pedicure feet water in her face.  However, we were 6' apart, both wearing masks and I didn't want to splash Mike, my pedi guy.  Plus, he mouth and nose were protected.  All I would have ruined was her mascara.  I just ended up asking her really private, highly offensive questions in attempts to get her to shut her pie hole.  It worked.  She shut up.  When I got into my car, I just cried.  How could some stranger tell me that his death didn't matter?  Had she been widowed in her 30's with two young boys, would she have felt the same way?  It was so upsetting.  It was like she was telling me that my feelings over his life were irrelevant.  It's like she's saying that loss comes in different categories and my loss wasn't enough.

I will never forget one of my girlfriends at Bryce's service bawling.  She was an absolute mess.  She and I were friends, but something that I didn't know at the time was that she had also lost a husband to cancer when she was in her early twenties.  I didn't know this until I read a card that she'd written to me.  It was the first time reading or hearing words that sunk in and didn't piss me off.  They made sense.  They were caring.  Then, BOOM!  She put pen to paper about her loss.  She felt my pain.  She wrote words that made sense to me.  I didn't realize it in that moment, but I had just become a part of a club.  The Widows Club.  In a world that is so divided and so easily angered, we need more compassion.  Even if seeing someone else in grief is painful, there's something that feels like healing when I reach out a helping hand.

A few months ago, I heard of a co-workers husband passing away unexpectedly.  Not someone I worked with regularly.  She's in another department, but I have met her before.  Something inside of me knew I had to reach out.  I waited a couple of weeks and fired off an email.  I mentioned Bryce's death.  I told her that she could contact me anytime, if she needed an open ear.  I also gave her an out.  I remember that I wasn't very open to strangers telling me "I feel your pain."  I let her know that I would totally understand if she never even replied.  Last week, we had lunch.  We both cried.  She wanted to hear my story.  I wanted to hear hers.  I'm five years in the club now.  She's only 5 months in.  I wanted to be strong and NOT cry for her.  That's just not possible.  When I left, I had to forgive myself for trying NOT to cry.

CRY!!!!  I mean.... DAMN!  We lost someone.  No. Not just someone.  We lost this human that we married.  We created children with them.  We slept in the same bed every night with this person that we loved deeply.  We fought, made love, laughed, talked about things, could sit in comfortable silence with this person.  CRY!!!!!!

Other losses that we feel may not have the same reasonings.  I don't make love to friends, but the pain is still there when we lose people.  I don't sleep with my parents in the same bed, but I also don't even want to think about them dying.  You just insert different reasons for why it hurts.  Parents love us in a way that we will never feel again.  They're the only two people that have known you since your conception.  Friends: you create a bond with a human as you go through life that is different than the next human.  When it's gone, it SUCKS!  So cry.  Say nice things.  Lift each other up.

I'd like to think that covid is starting to let up a little.  There's more and more in the news of people being able to go back to the office, go to concerts, etc, etc.  Humans need human interaction.  I'm hoping that there will be less people dying of this thing very soon.  I also can't stand how people are treating each other through all of this.  Here's the deal, people.... it ALL hurts.  Just be nice.

I guess that's it.  That's the point of today's ramblings.  You never know what a person is going through.  A friend recently told me, "Jesus will never look into the eyes of another person that he doesn't love just as much as you."  Just be nice to people.  If you are going through loss, you are not alone.  Sadly, there's a club for you, too.  Just be nice.  Love each other.  Even when you want to kick dirty feet water in an elderly woman's face, be nice.



Sunday, September 13, 2020

Comin' up roses (actually, it's a Japanese magnolia)

 It's been a crazy few week around here.  The last week or two have been especially nuts.  However, there have been some beautiful moments amidst the insanity.  Two of the 3 boys have elected to go back to school  for face to face learning, while Bowen has elected to continue with remote learning to avoid a quarantine situation.  He lives to play sports.  That being said, I have to brag.

Bowen started 10th grade this year.  AJ started 8th grade.  Bryant has moved into middle school for his 6th grade year.



We all needed this little nugget of normalcy during the most insane year of our lives.  So far, this fall is going to be my favorite part of the year.  Bowen made Varsity in football and AJ made marching band drum line.  Friday night lights will be SOOOOOOO fun!!!!  Bowen scored his first Varsity touchdown this past Friday and I could have cried and yelled and jumped and yelled.  *sigh*  Although, I did really yell, I feel like I held it together.  Just in case you would like to see said touch down, watch the video in this news clip HERE.

The cherry on the top, however, and the wrap up for this weekend was finally planting a tree for Bryce.  Bryce wanted to become trees.  He was very specific about who would get a piece of him to become part of these trees.  He wanted for me to have a Jacaranda tree, but I have killed 4 of them now.  I think that he picked this tree because of it's beautiful purple flowers.  His ashes, however, have been in a pot with the fourth dead tree for over a year.

While Kyle and I have spent months working on the add on room, I decided to pick up a Japanese magnolia to plant in the front yard.  The blood, sweat and tears that have gone into this add on are unreal.  Then my parents helped immensely in the final push to make my vision of the front yard come to fruition.  Today, Bryce's tree went in.  I cried a lot before my parents came over.  As my dad poured the last of the root simulator on, he said, "There ya go, B Stobb."  Watching them all fuss over this tree means more than I can ever find words for.  And Kyle..... I mean, how can I love him so much while missing Bryce the way I do?  And even more than that.... How does he handle my love for Bryce without jealousy or judgement?  He's just an amazing human with such a beautiful heart.


Welcome to your new old home, Bryce.
P.S.  your boys are out there killin' it, but I know that you know that







Saturday, June 13, 2020

2020 Midway Point

I don't know that anyone necessarily wants to read what I have to say about a global epidemic, but I write to process my own feelings and I write to get it all out.  So, here it goes.

For anyone living under a rock or for anyone that finds this blog in a hundred years, we are currently living in a world that is under attack by COVID-19.  Our hospitals are not equipt with enough ventilators to battle and treat this sickness.  That's the basics of it.

They told us all to stay home.  Well, that's weird!  We were required to home school our kids for a season.  That's hard!  I personally am in the middle of construction on my home, too.  I suffer from anxiety and depression off and on from time to time.  It happens to be one of those times.  Life circumstances probably brought that on.  Mental illness and emotional distress is a very real thing.  And to be perfectly honest, it sucks!

We're about halfway to Christmas in 2020 and here's a little run down of things happening in my life.  My job said, "Do NOT come to the office."  My job duties have had to shift a little bit, but I'm lucky. I still have a job while others were forced out of theirs.  That makes me sad.  For three weeks, the kids and I locked ourselves in our home, homeschooled and tried to figure out what was happening in the world.  The construction on the home was put on hold because workers couldn't come here.  Why? Because the workers were afraid to come in and we were afraid to let people in, because none of us wanted to die.  That's not a comfortable feeling.  Next, the death of George Floyd caused an uproar in every major city across America. Rightfully so.  It wasn't fear I felt then.  It was overwhelming sadness.  In the middle of this, we've tried to get construction moving again.  I also stepped down from my Worship Team at church. That's met with mixed emotions as well.

Here's the deal... there's no way anyone could be experiencing 2020 in America and not feel like:
1)  2020 is definitely the equivalent to a dumpster fire
2)  Humans everywhere are in serious pain
3)  Emotional and mental health problems are very real

That being said, what a time for us to lay ourselves at the cross.  Churches have been forced to close thier brick and mortar doors, but a building isn't the church.  The people, the body of Christ, are still here.  When talking to the pandemic, I know that Revelation 21:4 is true.  Someday, there will be no more death.  And the beautiful image of Christ wiping away all of our tears helps me.  For this woman experiencing severe anxiety and depression, I HAVE to go to The Word.
Psalm 94:18-19 - God will support and console me
Isaiah 45:5-7 - Everything is under God's control 
Psalm 143:7-8 - God listens and responds to my cries for help

What about when I'm feeling weak or frustrated? 
Psalm 34:19 God will deliver us through our struggles 
Romans 8:26 - The Spirit helps us in our weaknesses 

I have The Word. God has given me all of the tools.  So, why.... WHY does life feel so hard right now?!  Why do I cry so much?  Why can't I just "feel better?!"  Afterall, in Matthew 6:25-34, He tells me not to worry about my life or about tomorrow.  So why do I worry?!  I mean... if worrying were an Olympic sport, I'd be pulling in Golds ALL DAY LONG!  Look out Phelps!

I don't know what my point is here, necessarily.  I do know that I'm not the only one feeling this way though.  What I need to say to people and definitely to myself is FORGIVE.  Forgive myself. Go easy on myself.  If God asks us to show mercy to others, then I need to show mercy to myself. 

Grace. Humility. Kindness. Compassion.
Jesus taught us.  He showed us, BY EXAMPLE, not only to share these gifts with others, but to lay them on our own hearts.




Wednesday, March 4, 2020

Drowning, Anniversaries and Rocks

Another year without Bryce.  Sometimes it feels like it's been 4 years.  Some days I feel like it has been a lifetime since I was able to touch him.  Unless you've lost someone, you will never understand what it feels like to desperately need a conversation with your person and they aren't there.  Other days, I may be in a crowd somewhere and I feel like I hear his laugh.  When I hear his laugh or his voice, it seems like it was just yesterday that he was still with me.  Grief messes with time.

About a month ago, I basically became the most awful person to be around.  About a week into being this evil monster, I was driving down the road when I heard Drowning by Chris Young for the first time.  I was undone.  Completely undone.  I did, however, try to be kind enough to myself to say "Self, this is why you're unbearable right now."  Most of the time, I can snap out of it when the reminder pops up.  This year has been different.

This could also be the result of some very, VERY trying times with my teenagers and Kyle's tween.  Either way, I don't particularly enjoy being a terrible person to be around.  I always tell my kids that they could "choose joy" or they "have the power to determine their own happiness."  My particular favorite is to use "the power of positivity."  The best part about using that last line is that Bowen was the one to teach us about that power.  I use it on him the most.

So, here it is.  Another D-day.  I haven't been positive for a month.  My prayers are full of prayers for people that are suffering.  Don't get me wrong.  I do thank Him for the things that I have.  I am praying for other things and people.  It's just that there's so much pain right now.  Deer Park High School class of 95 lost a truly wonderful soul.  Gil Co, you were one of a kind.  The family that I met Bryce through lost ANOTHER sibling and son.  I loved Joe dearly.  My friend here in Lago suffering through breast cancer.  Nik, God is a healer.  Rich, praying for your strength while your wife needs you the most.  These three are just the tip of the iceberg.

Maybe I've been such a wreck because of all of it.  Maybe I've been just a mess because I am so dang tired.  Tired makes me weepy.  Tired also makes me angry.  No one likes being around emotional bears.  The people closest to me just couldn't get a good read.  No one really knew what version of Jessica they were about to receive.  That's a scary place to be.  for them.

Naturally, D-day arrives and things feel like they can go back to normal.  It was really nice to wake up to the sound of thunder and rain pouring down.  It was an external picture of what was going on in my heart.  It's also cleansing.  It's an external picture of everything being washed away.  A normal way of life will still be messy for now with the kids sports schedules, but my head space is perhaps going to level out.

I also made the decision to remember this day in a different way.  I couldn't figure out exactly what I wanted that to look like until this morning.  Bryce and I started doing the traditional wedding gifts in year 4.  That year was leather.  This was also the year that Bryce went from being a TERRIBLE gift finder to kicking my tail every single year in the anniversary gift game.

This being year 4, I thought about buying something leather.  However, I also want to marry Kyle someday and I would like to carry on the traditional wedding gifts with him.  I googled what the modern gifts were.  They're boring, by the way.  I am not interested in honoring Bryce's first day in heaven with an appliance.  The irony here, is that I will have a new double oven and microwave delivered this week.

Anyhow, while google searching, I discovered that leather may have been year 3, not year 4.  I also discovered that there are different stones, gems and colors for anniversaries, too.  So that's it.  I don't need a new topaz ring, but what I can do is collect things.  Fake rocks that symbolize a rare stone.  Rocks that are similar or the same color.  I have a glass bowl that we received as a wedding bowl.  I have been trying to decide what to do with it since the potpourri lost it's stink AGES ago.  This is it.  I'm searching for rocks, gems and colors.

February may look like a mess for me.  In other words, I will be a mess for some or all of February.  March, even though it's a crazy time for our family, can be filled with stones and color and memories.  I hold a stone, pray over it.  I can hold these things and pray for the suffering that it happening all around me.  Around ALL of us.  Once it's been prayed over, I can put them in my beautiful bowl knowing that all of these things are out of my hands.  Let's face it.  I never had control of them to begin with.